i have never mentioned pvp exactly im not just looking at pvp when i think of balance this is not a pvp shard first and foremost and i dout it ever will be. if it were no one would have to train a skill youd just be gm everything. when im talking about getting things balanced im looking at it as a whole considering everything. fixing simple skill caps certain classes have would go along way. dex healing has been an issue since it was introduced. and bitching about dodging poison pots is just silly. in my mind people that bitch about that are just moronic "yay i can hit you 100% of the time with a poison pot and make you heal less". or hey lets go back to how it was when no one had anatomy over 60.0 so they didnt have to worry about wasting a heal on cure.

making humans need classes wont balance anything if all war mages have 50 healing. or all mages have 50 healing it will just make everyone choose warrior and then you will all bitch and quit. ever think about that before you shot that poop out your talking hole? f****** tool

nosympathy wrote:I still don't feel like I need to be forced to pick a class and be stuck with a damn penalty. As much as you think Bob will balance it out you will still have penalties. I am not gonna stick by this after (for the first time since I joined this game) I have stuck to my characters builds and not deleted them and be forced this decision. I am not gonna go change Scrappy to a race and have a penalty loom over here (and yes, a penalty will be implemented to balance classes/races out).

I also found one of your comments rather contradicting: "maybe a no class option for all races"

Last time I checked that statement is the equivalence of being, idk, human?

nope because you would have the extra skill points just like every race so it wouldnt be um human + racial abilities...the penalties would be you wouldnt get the benefits of having to submit to a class such as running and shooting as a ranger, maybe a war mage has a mana regeneration benefit IDK thats up to the community to decide but Humans and Races and classes are out of whack and So is this current fighting system. If anything Bob can test this out in a test server before being implemented and have a few players check it out...and even if its implemented he can always revert back if it doesnt pan out.... secondly older players been through way more shit and have you noticed its us that have been penalized way more than you have over the years especially the pvpers.

Obviously we already voiced our opinions on HEALING CAPS and it would go along with the changes to classes....to make it 100 for War Mages.

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Scathach of Skye - Pure Ranger

Wes wrote: just because im not a sky is falling chicken little like you and adam

Wes wrote: ever think about that before you shot that poop out your talking hole? f****** tool

You too. QUIT INSULTING. Please just stay on topic.

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Obsidian Staff - Administrator

i still dont get why humans are the "monkey wrench" in the system, they dont seem to do any better then any of the races... as you noticed the best character is hemo and hes not human at all....

you guys think archery is the saving grace for everything, but it needs a very little tweakin abit for the better and a bit to hold it bak

humans aren't the monkey wrench in the system, people not promoting NEW ideas and givign NEW ideas to help balance the system is the monkey wrench...
adam has gotten a new idea, and all new THOUGHT OUT ideas look good atm.. theres just a lack of other ones, and a over bundance of complainers that don't try to help a situation besides.. with a i disagree or I agree / and the occasional unthoughtful really unbalanced idea.....

so maybe you guys should go out, TEST pvp (because it is a beta) and actually try to help balance things out?

and i am in no way talking about adam, because he is actually giving ideas... and trying... just in a douche bag im better then u type of way... which is just his way of saying shit... doesnt bother me.,, just saying xD lawl

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king of the run on sentence.

Your kidding me right? Your going to justify that this will be the best option because of an extra 100 skillpoints?

There would be the same penalties that are now. I doubt Bob would go around switching the penalties up just to make people happy. He said in the past that the reason races are as they are now is because they were not implemented and coded properly, thus he placed healing, magery, and other skills with caps (as they were supposed to be back in the day). Honestly, you think Bob is going to give war mages 100 magery and 100 healing? Either you get 100 healing and 80 magery, or 100 magery and 80 healing.

And waving your veteran stick around isn't going to help either. I have played since 2005-6 and you are only 2 years older than me within this game, so telling me I don't know anything about that time is ridiculous.

Just because you are 'veterans' doesn't give your opinions a higher priority over everyone else.

ALSO! You guys can't be saying that you want this change and then say "if it doesn't work we switch it back." Once its changed I believe you guys need to deal with the choice you made and it should be that way. That will be a 'penalty' you guys pay for jumping the gun with this idea without thinking it out ALL the way.

oooooh lawwwwd, CHUUUCCCH

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king of the run on sentence.

nosympathy wrote:I just don't like the idea of being forced to choose a race and a class and be forced to abide by its rules.
Why should I be forced to choose a race and then pick war-mage and be docked healing?
This is the idea that Count is going for and it is the problem that I have with this whole suggestion.
I don't want to play a game where I am forced to do something I don't want to do.
And as most of the people have expressed here, they don't want the change either.

I have expressed here my views on the healing caps in concern to "war-mage"..
i am not going to go back and look for exactly what i said but i also mentioned that if all races had classes "simple tweaks to the class restrictions/benefits" would go a lot farther to balance the shard
healing in concern to any class would fall into this catagory..
in simple tests it would be clear that 50 healing would not compete with the other classes and it would be raised.. in my opinion to 100.. but that would be worked out durring tests.. if 100 was found to be to high it could be lowered..

Rippa wrote:... and For your information Count has logged on a bunch of hours since hes been back he has pvped .. but really how can he pvp with 7, 5, 4 people on? who most of time are PVMs hunting and dont pvp at all.

actually i have done very little pvp since my return.. and since black ops has been released it has taken up alot of my free time.. not that i dont want to play obsidian.. i just at this time dont have as much time for it..
but with my experience in terms of pvp.. knowing all the facts involved and seeing it in action first hand.. i can give a experienced opinion on the subject.. also note how i am not biased.. i was known pvp wise for a warrior.. and every suggestion i have made in terms of pvp since my return has been against that build..

the main reason i have not been involved in pvp that much is because Count is now destroyed by the aftermath of vampire related issues... his stats are low and certain skills are a bit off since he has the build of about 4 years ago
and i have been having fun playing as a necro in training. and trying out the various new changes to everything while i was away.

chips LL wrote:i still dont get why humans are the "monkey wrench" in the system, they dont seem to do any better then any of the races...
...
...
and i am in no way talking about adam, because he is actually giving ideas... and trying... just in a douche bag im better then u type of way... which is just his way of saying shit... doesnt bother me.,, just saying xD lawl

I only think humans are the monkey wrench in the system because of the new class system that was implemented. At a first glance I considered the class system to be a horrible idea.. after much thought afterwards i think it is brilliant however..
The class system is such a dramatic change from how humans were and races were...
Humans are a flaw in the idea and goal of the class system..
with humans being balanced in terms of lower skill points and no restrictions.. this is negated by vet rewards..

the class system to be in full effect and used to its full potential (which i think you all would enjoy) cannot be obtained unless you have humans follow the same guidelines

and about your closing statement it made me laugh.. hehe especially the douche bag part brother heh

I never said anything about pvp, everyone knows I do not pvp I never claimed to pvp. But I am a crafter and have worked with crafting primarily and thus can offer the other side of things other then just combat related. A human crafter is ideal right now because there are too many restrictions with classes you cannot make a race crafter that can make make all items. currently tinkering plus all other skills will give you random items in those skills.


I understand the vet point argument and I realize that many people are not the original holders of the accounts. However some people are. Again it seems to be that the main argument here is that a human with vet points can get much further then a race character. So why don't we get rid of races? then we would all be equal again....

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Ankhesenamun
Dedo Serenity
Fisherwmn
Ruby Estella
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would make for a pretty bland experience and be like any other shard out there but sure why not.... if thats what you want.. the races is one thing obsidian has to offer thats a bit different from other places..
in a sense.. the races are the life of the shard..

You can fit 8 good crafting skills easily on a race smith, so you definitely have options, like in my case:

Right now on my Wood elf Smith I have: fishing, cooking, blacksmithy, mining, fletching, alchemy, and lumberjacking which can be GM. I have 50 tinkering which I use to make bottles, which is capped, and gladly so. Then, I use the tree portal thingy to teleport to my house, so I don't even need magery to recall. That still gives me one more skill I could throw in with vet rewards. If that's not a capable money making "classed" crafter, I don't know what is.

And you still have options to do animal taming, tracking, animal lore, or tailoring, and carpentry to GM on a smith class if you wanted to. A human you would have one less skill to take up, so ultimately its about the same thing. There's no "ideal" crafter. I think as it is it's pretty well setup, if I can get this type of build I have on a "classed" crafter. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what class you take as a crafter, the build is there for what you wanna do, so the crafter side isn't much to argue over. IMO

To comment on the topic at hand directly, PLEASE don't think about eliminating races. That is exactly what every crappy shard has, and it sucks when everyone is the same. Having a variety of characters is the best thing about this shard; eliminating races will just make everyone pick the same best possible PvP build = shard destroyed, PvP wise at least. Finding a balance is obviously not easy because everyone has their slight bias, or their own ideas on what's best, but at least it's something being worked on. I don't PvP enough now to make great suggestions, but I did in the past, and I can tell for sure that dropping races screws over almost everything. 2cents

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Nightmare [Deamons]: PvM Mage
Xero: GM Blacksmith/Fishing/Bowcraft
Primus: Warrior

Dedo wrote: A human crafter is ideal right now because there are too many restrictions with classes you cannot make a race crafter that can make make all items. currently tinkering plus all other skills will give you random items in those skills.

I agree with this. I see nightmare's argument and I disagree. I've also heard Bob's argument about the following but I don't agree.

I'll put this is plainly as I can:

A blacksmith who can GM tailoring but not GM tinkering is complete nonsense!

That there was the only reason I regretted changing my human crafter to an Ice Elf blacksmith. However, I do like my race advantage trade-off.

On a side note, I remember the old vampire system.. and back then nearly EVERYONE was playing a damn vampire, because they were superior in many ways. That to me was stupid. Now suddenly there's a concern that humans are superior? Meh.

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Ultima avatar: The Famed JIZABOZ,GWAR Guildmeister

Adam you just made my argument for me.... what you are suggesting is to make everything equal it would be bland just like every other shard.... I do not mind the current system at all everyone is free to choose what they would like to be whether it is human or race and the limitations of each are clearly set. Just because old players can have an extra 100 skill points does not mean that things are unbalanced... and if you feel that it does make it unbalanced then we need to address that issue not create another one. you would still have the same problem with humans being subjected to classes as well...

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Ankhesenamun
Dedo Serenity
Fisherwmn
Ruby Estella
Enchantress

adam_c wrote:would make for a pretty bland experience and be like any other shard out there but sure why not.... if thats what you want.. the races is one thing obsidian has to offer thats a bit different from other places..
in a sense.. the races are the life of the shard..

wtf are you talking about dedo.. i didn't make any argument for you..
you said eliminate races.. i was being sarcastic saying it would make for a bland experience..

there is no argument for crafters... with the class system you can gm ENOUGH crafting skills.. who the hell says you should be able to gm all the best skills for crafting on one char.. for fuks sake..

by me suggesting everything equal it is bland? nodda... what you have currently is going to be a closed.. bland expereince where ppl will pick the best possible build for pvp... "HUMAN".. that is bland.. what i suggest is a wide variety of choices one could make and it would be a BALANCED platform... balanced does not make things "bland"
balance is the key to what you are after...

i really don't care at this point.. im just telling you how it can work.. and this is the last i will post in this thread.. so take these last few statements to heart...

If you are going to use a class system.. it is not only ignorant to not include humans in that system.. it is a direct inbalance to the class system itself.... if you consider any game out there that has some type of system similar to a "class" there is no work around to this.. it is the core balance...
you ppl. are considering races as the core.. (humans included..) but if you initiate a system that involves classes it now becomes more important than ALL the Races! as it is a set structure for builds...

its either foolish to use the class system.. or foolish to not include humans.. thats all i am going to say.. as for what happens i could care less.. its black opts for me.. and i have very little time for time consuming grinding on this game.. so in all honesty make of it what you will.. im just trying to give my guidance.. which in a real ass hole way i must say.. means a hell of a lot more than 90% of any living being posting on these forums.. that being said.. but.. besides that.. i do love you all

adam_c wrote:

adam_c wrote: which in a real ass hole way i must say.. means a hell of a lot more than 90% of any living being posting on these forums.. that being said.. but.. besides that.. i do love you all

yet.. no one asked for your advice!!!
:O
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shocker......

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king of the run on sentence.

adam_c wrote: i really don't care at this point.. im just telling you how it can work.. and this is the last i will post in this thread..

For real this time?

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Ultima avatar: The Famed JIZABOZ,GWAR Guildmeister