We then need to agree to fix CLasses... N I THINK ALL CLASSES SHOULD HAVE PASSIVE BENEFITS LIKE RANGERS should have bonus dmg or LESS MISSES etc... If you gonna limit classes might as well give them some benefits cuz right now humans are the shit dont believe me fight Devil, Bane, Sweet.

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Scathach of Skye - Pure Ranger

Dedo wrote:since we are speaking of American gov't lets stick with the analogies. in American Gov't we have a system of checks and balances. Right now obs is balanced as far as char types are concerned we are still working on the finer points but it is balanced. We have the humans who can master any set of skills balancing out the severely limited classes which allow you 100 extra skills but limit those skills to a cookie cutter formation. so all the classes are checks on each other making sure there isn't one super stronger then the others (in theory) and the humans have the veto power. LIKE THE OWNER INTENDED. as Chips said there is no argument needed past the fact that BB likes it that way so thats the way it is. as for bringing up vet rewards benefiting older players...well duh thats what they are their for....10 skill points a year doesn't get you real far if you play every day you can get 10 skill pts in a few days then have to wait another year to get the next 10. So yes for some players who have been here 10 years congrats! I'm glad you got your points and hope you use them to womp in everyone!.

and Adam yes I agree the whole point of this thread is a terrible idea

so your whole basis on the opinion is the fact that humans have a lower skill cap? with vet rewards you must see how this is broken..
but i don't essentially see vet rewards as the problem.. nor do i see classes as a problem.. as long as it is done correctly..
.. and also.. just because the owner says things one way does not mean you cannot question it... i could go into instances of things being done wrong ect but it will only piss ppl off so im not going to touch that one.. but it don't mater really... worry less about bb and be glad you have bob doing tons of work now..

wes is horribly mistaken race/classes are no where near balanced.. it would take a shit ton of work to acomplish this.. not to mention the whole system of vampires needs to be simplified (remove bloodlines) you could spend months trying to balance races and classes and you would still have a flawed system... cause your building it on a system set up for failure

chips.. your right obsidian has never had a human with 780 skill cap.. but on that same note.. it has also never had classes put into place... if races did not have classes this whole topic would not be an issue... you are correct it would make simplifying pvp and balance alot easier... know what else it would do.. it would make any future changes a lot easier to adapt into the system.. currently any small thing can throw any slight idea of balance off..
as far as making it boreing and "simple" tho like you suggest.. it is very much the opposite.. lol you would have 5-6 diff. types of warriors.. rangers.. mages.. and tanks... thats atleast 20 different pvp class builds not to mention toss in necro and any other random wierd builds...
that to me is about as diverse as it can possibly be and i know of no other shard that is built that way or that it could be compared to..

and the subject of BB... I am very well aware of what he likes.. dislikes and how he wants the shard ran.. however he is not running it atm.. and I believe with some discussion and insight he would clearly see how this would benefit the shard.. I highly doubt BB would care either way.. and if so i think he should for the most part if not already have Bob take care of all shard management.. He has done a good job at staying on top of things and doing work. BB never had the time to mess with it.. and when he did it was very limited.. if bob found anything to be a reasonable fix i doubt bb would question it.

me personally I think it would be much more entertaining to see a human race function like the others and have its own lil special things about it...
if done correctly.. bobs class idea setup just may be the balance solution this shard has always sought after..

but i will say this one final time!
You cannot balance classes to classes.. while trying to balance classes to humans that do not have classes!
... a 100 point skill cap difference does not compensate for NO limitations... for one thing.. the skill cap hardly maters
to me.. it isn't even a debatable subject.. I think i have pretty much gave you a clear reason why it is necessary...
the only problem i see is that none of you that oppose this so strongly... have a f'in clue.. either that or are lil suck @ss's...

also btw... i have altered the poll to allow for ppl to change their mind either way.. if you have changed your mind you can change your vote on the poll... for or against it don't really mater.. i thought the ability to change your mind should be given..

adam_c wrote: You cannot balance classes to classes.. while trying to balance classes to humans that do not have classes!

exactly.... everyone is making a point on how humans have remained the same indeed they have but guess what everything else changed...n for the most part for the better humans need to change as well....they are the group to avoid limitations meanwhile laughing at the races which have shitty abilities.

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Scathach of Skye - Pure Ranger

you both are missing my glaring point here race/classes CAN be balanced with humans with just a little tweaking maybe you two need to get your heads out of each others laps and read what is being typed. the skill caps are just a little off for classes making them rather useless once hard caps go into place. so stop whining and making this a bigger deal than it is.

adam_c wrote: you would have 5-6 diff. types of warriors.. rangers.. mages.. and tanks... thats atleast 20 different pvp class builds not to mention toss in necro and any other random wierd builds...
that to me is about as diverse as it can possibly be and i know of no other shard that is built that way or that it could be compared to..

and with humans its unlimited.... you are asking us to vote to limit ourselves even more then we already are. to what end? if you think humans are overpowered then make a human you have that option just like the rest of us. if you like ice elves make an ice elf, its not any more complicated then that. there was even the option of making your existing race chars into humans if you wanted! I fail to see what this would accomplish there are plenty of people trying new things with the current system to see what does and does not work for them. so the whole point of your argument is moot its pointless... I'm sure that if Bob does see that everyone it making Human warriors and no other race of warriors then he might step in and do something but for now you are free to choose!

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[email protected]

Ankhesenamun
Dedo Serenity
Fisherwmn
Ruby Estella
Enchantress

Human warrior > Race warrior IMO but I do see Wes's point of view n I already agreed to major tweaking of classes...

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Scathach of Skye - Pure Ranger

dedo... u still don't grasp the concept.. what limits you will limit anyone else in the same manor.. lol.. you would be no worse off than you are currently.. why.. because everyone else would be on the same F'in system... its a global change.. not anything that would hurt the human in particular..

wes.. you have some strange idea that classes are more balanced than they actually are.. there is no minor tweaking that would fix anything... the system is heavily out of balance.. bellow is things that would need changing ne ways..

if you are going to design a shard to work around a mage class.. a warrior class.. a ranger class and a tank (war mage class) it is retarded not to include all races...

what in the fuk are you all afraid of... here ill explain to you what will happen

humans are given classes blah blah blah...

you had a human mage and u want to keep ur mage human.. but damn
now you have to deal with the armor penalties of the class as well as what other limitations...
you quickly see that son of a bitch these warriors and rangers are raping me (like they all ready are ne ways.. )
you tweak the system between classes.. make the stronger class miss more.. or do less dmg... speed up magery casting.. you do this untill you find that your racial mage class is now capible of contending with any warrior or ranger class farily.. (which needs to b done ne ways..) and you move on to the next class

for war mage.. they would need to have high healing and gm any wep type and be cap'ed in magery at what ever level lets you polly (if the number is too high then the demon polly needs to be lowered to like 80 and cap them there.. you then let this warmage build try to contend with rangers, mages, warriors and see if you can get them to be able to hold their own. (this too needs work ne ways!)

its rather simple really.. after you get mages, warmages, warriors, rangers all somewhat balanced out you can test them against necros.. as necros are a very diff type and would need everything else balanced before you would try to balance them to the other classes.. (this still needs to be done also)

the end result would be a shard full of diff race mages.. rangers... warriors.. ect...

you would see human mages and wood elf mages alike... and ect..
your build would be centered around the "class"! your choice in race would be what special benefits you wanted to give to touch your char up a bit.. add a little flavor to it.. but essentially a mage in one race would be just as good as any other race.. and same with all the other classes... the only difference would be racial effects..

the difference would be what that player chose to have as a bonus.. would they want to heal in nature.. or be a night walker... be a natural healer(human)... or harness the powers of ice... it would all be your own preference...

currently you have a cookie cutter system!
you have a system which limits you in what direction race you choose because of the class system..
my way only limits u as much as the class system will allow.. and the choice of race gives your char what flavor you choose...

and its not as dramatic of a change as you would think and would require no more work than is already needed in the first place..

If what i am suggesting is done.. instead of the class system limiting you... it is turned around and opens you up to more possibilities.. it makes the class system work as it should.. the guide line that balances the diff. builds...

and if done right.. you would have 20-30 different pvp builds among the diff race/class setups.... all being balanced..
this IS a diverse and in depth system!
currently you have a system thats trying to completely re-innovate the shard while not letting go of what it has to in order to move on.. this is a foolish mistake.. and poor judgment..

lol.. i talked to some older players that refused to come back to the shard... i see why now.. the day to day ignorance that they said they didnt want to deal with.. said the shard is inhabited with the same noobs that didn't know shit back when they quit.. laughed when i mentioned who the top pvpers were.. they thought the whole idea of the class system was retarded as hell..
all im trying to do is try to make that idea work... and this IS THE solution... not a suggestion..

trying to explain this bores me..
i cannot make you open your eyes i can only attempt to show u the light...

anything that you think will gimp you is irrelevant.. it all has to be re-balanced ne ways.. mages gotta be tweaked as well as all the classes.. so anything from armor to casting speed to weapon dmg is all on the table for change ne ways... all you need to be concerned about is the idea of a global class system involving all races.. then use you lil heads to branch out from there

.. in closing.. the glue that would hold the balance together is the laws of the class system! which all pvp based char types will have to abide to... true balance in the fact that EVERYONE would have to abide to the Class setup... simple tweaks to the Class restrictions and benefits would globally across the board.. balance pvp... simple as that..

you cannot argue with me that this would not only work.. but be easier to maintain balance as well as add more diversity to builds in pvp... its indisputable... its like god came down and jotted the shit down on a rock.. and i beat you in the mutha F'in head with it!!! like BAM beyotch... lol...

I really do not see how you think this will not limit us more. currently there is no class that would allow you to be able to craft all items, example you cannot have tinkering on a smith and you cannot have tailoring or bowcraft on an artficier. I made my original woodelf crafter into a human because of the build I was going for did not fit the mold. I was ticked when I had to make the switch I wanted to have the extra 100 skill that I had planned on having 6 years ago but I still did it that was the best option for me. So yes forcing all humans to choose a class would make it balanced, we would all have the same cookie cutter to work from the only difference between chars of the same class would be what race they picked... forcing another drastic change of this measure would make us loose even more dedicated players. As I have said before it is not worth it if you wanna be a human then be a human end of story if you want the extra skill from a race then deal with the classes those are the choices that you have.

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[email protected]

Ankhesenamun
Dedo Serenity
Fisherwmn
Ruby Estella
Enchantress

adam your making mountains outs of A mole hill so shut it. fact is if you actually look at it you would see that with just a bit of tweaking with skills you could make it balanced why you think this is so out of balance i can not see.

as far as your post is concerned everyone already thinks mage casting needs to be faster... and they need to fizzle less. currently mages have had the same armor for a long time all raced mages can wear myth plate currently so thats not even a point to be made.

rangers are getting some special equipment just isn't here yet so just give it some time... (durka)

warriors are fine the way they are maybe slow down 2 tile weapons a bit damage maybe a little to high on them. but thats easily fixed.

war mages are garbage with their healing there is already a topic on this that included raced mages and how high to bring the skill up.

screwing around with caps is all that actually needs to be done. so why you continue to make these posts that are so long 90% of people don't fully read through is just beyond me. races/classes don't need that much work and no where near the amount you think.

conversation over

i have said all that needs to be said.

I like adams idea.

i voted no originally, but if the current plan of action takes too long and needs constant tweaking due to the balancing of humans to other races then i think adams idea wouldn't take too long and would be effective to work out perfectly fine

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Nightmare [Deamons]: PvM Mage
Xero: GM Blacksmith/Fishing/Bowcraft
Primus: Warrior

Something needs to be done and I believe adam has the answer. I havent posted yet but read all the arguements and I agree with him. Right now there is an undeniable unbalance in the game and by making a common ground we have a chance at fixing this.

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Deathwish
PuddleCakes

the unbalance is with skill caps being so low. currently the only class that is worth using is a raced warrior. rangers i guess will be getting some special stuff so i will be holding judgment on that class. but if you look the low healing cap is a problem with the 2 mage classes. other than that there isn't a problem that i can see aside from people saying certain necro spells are to strong. but fail see that it takes alot of mana and anyone with a bit of skill could kill them before they meditated to cast it agian... and currently all casting classes can use myth plate which is the standard on humans anyways. humans aren't causing the unbalance, skill caps are. that and ice elves raceskills being solely geared for pvp. humans are the control, and its not the total skill cap being lowered that makes them the control it is the fact they do not have race skills. and when you really look at it everyone bitches about something, first it was hemo and he was overpowered now since there is a few good human pvpers humans are overpowered some of you are so fickle.

agreed, with wes for the most part. things arent so far out of wack, every class / build has its draw backs,

some people say human warriors are the best, and others say raced warriors are lol so i dun think humans vrs races is the problem, i think its just the actual builds..

bears need to have there str adjusted, and some weps need to be rebalanced (some for stronger, some for weaker), and the classes need better powers now.... specially wood elfs and warlocks, but thats been said tons of times

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king of the run on sentence.