I just want to rant for a little bit about things.

Bob took away archery because he thought it was imbalanced...lets look at that for a second.

Lets start with PvP.

I used to PvP a lot, and I was ok at it. I sometimes like to think that I was one of the better PvP warriors of my "generation". It was not uncommon for fights to last 15 minutes or longer between the better PvPers on the shard....be it archery, swords, magic, poison, or any combination of skills. That sounds like balance to me. The system was not perfect, but it was a dam good foundation.

And on to PvM.

Some aspects of PvM are easier with archery, but why is that an imbalance? It still takes a LONG time of training skills and countless deaths from trial and error of tactics to perfect a hunting technique. Once you have those things down you can still die a lot. It's FUN to hunt harder things in the game...and EVERYONE can do it if they put up the time and energy to figure out how. It took me almost 3 years of playing before I was able to take a bow and a kryss and head into the hardest dungeons to hunt. It took far more resources for me to hunt these creatures then I got back in loot, but I did it because it was FUN, not because I got rich doing it. When Bob wiped the gold from the shard I had a whole 200K in my banks spread between 5 characters....most of that was from spending countless hours killing skeleton mages and elementals so I can get the items I need to have FUN.

There was no imbalance with archery. For there to be an imbalance, there must be a reference of some kind. There must be something (or at a minimum an idea of something) that stands for what the perfect world would be, and skills can be judged against that. The only reference for removing archery was proficiency……some of us warriors put in countless hours and actually became good at what we wanted to do…and we had FUN doing it. If having FUN is on an inverse scale to balance, then I suppose the archery removal makes sense…Otherwise, it just seams a little vindictive to people who love the game and love having FUN.

Now, I know Bob is working on a new set of abilities for classes. And this will be one of his main points of disabling archery. Well, if that’s the case, right now warriors get the negative parts of that new class system without ANY of the positive. All we have is talk of something that might come sometime in the future. The problem is, there is always some system more important, or work is always in the way, or there is always quality time at home, or something that will put things on hold. I’m sure that we will eventually see the new classes, but past experience with Obsidian has taught me to expect things later rather than sooner. In the meantime, there’s no reason to keep archery disabled. We can judge if it stays disabled when we see what these new abilities will be.

Let’s focus back to hunting for a bit. I touched on what it takes for a hunt into the harder parts, but I want to go over what it takes to actually prepare for that hunt. First of the arrows. You can easily go through 500 or more arrows on a good hunt. Those arrows don’t grow on trees…I need to take a shield and a melee weapon and kill a ton of skeletal archers which can take a while. Next it’s the pots. Poison pots, heal pots, cure pots, agility, on and on and on. I have to make those, and I can go through a ton on one hunt. It’s a hell of a lot faster now with the new pot system, but back then it took half a day to grind the pots and do runs to get enough regs. Then there’s the bandages…not too hard to find, just have to get to one of the 3 tailors and hope someone was not just there buying out the stock. On to small fish…The only small fish I would use is the RA fish, so it’s not that bad…then again, the only fish that worked back then was the RA fish, so it’s a wash. That leads me to armor and weapons. Those larger monsters really trash armor, so it was always being replaced. That means mining. Lots of mining…and blacksmithing. It’s dam hard to get a set of decent armor in one day of mining, so you have to pre-plan and mine for a few days prior to the hunt and hope your armor will last a few trips out. Anyway…all these things I have to do I had to train skills for, and they are ALL in support of my archery (heavy armor wearing) warrior.

I’m almost done here…last bit….I’m a fencer…Have any of you devs even tested fencing on a mage with the RA spell on????? Have you really? If you have you know it don’t do shit. Archery is the only way a fencer can damage a mage with RA on, much less be competitive. I built my character to use fencing because it’s unique, effective while hunting smaller things (not worth wasting arrows on skeletons and zombies), and with archery he’s well rounded. I worked hard to get my character where he is, just to have his primary skill removed because I got TOO good at having fun.

I loved the last system, I thought it was perfect, nothing needed changing except for maybe meditation on a mage. Other than that it was fine, now they are wanting to change our looting options...seriously? We are going to hunt for the money, buy our regs, our bandages, potions, fish, etc, then go and kill someone, and get to loot 1 or 2 things? I think we should have something else now that we have lost archery, and other skills are being lowered.

Here's the point ------> .

Here's azimuth -----------------------------> | <---

I think he missed it.

I never said archery was inbalanced. I'd love to know where people get this idea from.

Archery was removed as a penalty, to balance out the extra skills the racial warrior gets.

I've said this in every post, and i'd love just ONCE to see someone understand it.

1. You can play a human.
2. Humans can use archery.

Most people forget those two points.

3. If you WANT to play a race character, and you WANT to be a race warrior, you lose archery as a balance of your skillpoints.

4. You do not HAVE to play a race character, and there should never be 90%+ of the shard as race characters.

Now that being said, racial abilities are SEPERATE from this balance, and will have their own penalties/bonuses to balance them out. Races, as they exist right now, are balanced.


On a completely unrelated note: RA might get some tweaks. Not set in stone, still have some testing to do, but i'm pretty sure it's behaving a little weirder than it should be(compared to t3a).

Bob, I hear what your saying, really I do. But take a step back from your grand plan for things and take a look at us players. Think about the time we put in, and how we once loved this shard, and how now it's a small shell of what it once was and what we know it could be. It was fine the way it was Bob. People were happy with it. It was not broken, imbalanced, or unjust....it was not as restrictive as you wanted so you changed it, and thus you started a ripple which had the ultimate effect of a mass exodus.

Ultimately this is a game, A game that is ment to be fun. A very simple formula dictates what is right and wrong in a game: Fun=Right, Nofun=wrong. We went for years with archery on races and it was not a problem. Look, lots of people over the years have complained about lots of things…have you ever once heard anyone complaining about being able to use archery and a melee weapon? Have you ever heard about it on ANY shard in the entire world???? No, you haven’t, because there’s nothing wrong it it.

If you want to penalize players for being a race in general, that’s fine. If you do so, make it a penalty by addition, not subtraction. Add stuff that only certain races can do, or places that only certain races can go to. To just say “you have more skill points and so you can’t use this skill” is generic, not thought out well, and a kick in the teeth to those who already have the skill you removed.

Yes, I could be human…DUHHHHHHHH…I can be human on any one of the 100s of other shards out there too. and I could have a minimum of 700 skill points doing it. I’m here because of the races, and because even with the races I have the ability and option to make my character as I see fit, without the limitations of a cookie cutter system, which is most definitely where I see things going.

You’re never going to have a fun functional shard by limiting options. That’s not what UO was EVER about.

My honest opinion….remove ALL races from the game. Make everyone human with a 700 skill point cap. Get the game to 100% like that first. Make it fun, add things to do that are unique to obsidian. Get rid of the bugs in a simple system and make it nice and stable. Give the players time to train and learn the simple systems THEN slowly add some of these ambitious changes you’re trying to do.

Your trying to bite off more then you can chew, and your making bad decisions because of it….the players are the ones suffering…and most have already left. Don’t make the 5 or 6 that remain regret that decision.

Bob, this topic has been going on for months now with countless people, and you said in your above post that just once you want someone to understand....The fact that NO ONE understands or agrees with this should speak volumes to you.

Here's the point! ----> .
Azimuth is way over here again ---------------> |

Stop missing the point please.

Forget about archery for 2 seconds. Seriously.
No one cares about archery as it pertains to this conversation. Because you're throwing out a red herring.

Ok? Are we there yet?

Good.

If you are still hung up about archery, stop reading. Right now. Go do something else, and come back when you're able to clear it from your mind.

If you want to play a race character, you take the race penalty.

Do we understand that? If so, move on, if not, go do something else until you can grasp this concept in your mind.

If you want to do whatever you want without restriction, you play a human character. 680 skillcap.

Do we understand that? See where I'm going?
I want you to read EVERY sentence, and honestly get it into your mind before moving on, because i'm sick of the 90% bullshit of people reading 1 sentence out of a paragraph then thinking they have a right to pretend like they're having a discussion.


The only person who is "limiting options" is YOU, azimuth. Because you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You are literally bitching because "OMFG why isn't the shard balanced the way i want it, screw the other players".

Lets start with PvP.

I used to PvP a lot, and I was ok at it. I sometimes like to think that I was one of the better PvP warriors of my "generation". It was not uncommon for fights to last 15 minutes or longer between the better PvPers on the shard....be it archery, swords, magic, poison, or any combination of skills. That sounds like balance to me. The system was not perfect, but it was a dam good foundation.

See, you're conveniently leaving out the point that makes your statement wrong, which is in the old system, if you weren't a vampire warrior, you instantly were at a huge disadvantage. Sure, it might have been balanced for vamp warrior vs vamp warrior, but that's like arguing that two GMs are balanced pvp, even though they can kill normal players without even trying.

Ultimately this is a game, A game that is ment to be fun. A very simple formula dictates what is right and wrong in a game: Fun=Right, Nofun=wrong. We went for years with archery on races and it was not a problem.

Yes, because it's obviously "Fun" for other players when their human character is beat by some imbalanced vampire who is less skilled than they are due to racial abilities. Or how about the unkillable frost elves when played correctly? Yeah sure sounds like "Fun" to me.

You keep using archery as if it matters, it doesn't. Archery on races wasnt' the problem, races being completely imbalanced compared was the problem. 98% of the people who had an option picked race characters, and anyone who chose a human was seen as stupid because of how weak they were in comparison.

If you want to penalize players for being a race in general, that’s fine. If you do so, make it a penalty by addition, not subtraction. Add stuff that only certain races can do, or places that only certain races can go to. To just say “you have more skill points and so you can’t use this skill” is generic, not thought out well, and a kick in the teeth to those who already have the skill you removed.

Penalty by addition. Yeah, sure. Let me reword that for you so it's less full of contradiction. What you meant was "MAKE EVERYONE STRONGER".

Broadband was against making humans stronger, he wanted the shard at a 680 human, so that people would be forced to pick their skills carefully. So no, we're not making humans stronger just so your race character doesn't get nerfed(weakend) from it's overpowered state. And saying that we should add "places that only certain races can go" sounds like another benefit, not a penalty. And is again, powercreep, since you're not suggesting any penalty to give htem for being given this "special area" to go to.

We went for years with archery on races and it was not a problem. Look, lots of people over the years have complained about lots of things…have you ever once heard anyone complaining about being able to use archery and a melee weapon? Have you ever heard about it on ANY shard in the entire world???? No, you haven’t, because there’s nothing wrong it it.

See, again you throw out archery as a red herring, when it has no point. The problem is that races were overpowered, and yes, quite a few people bitched about it over the years. It would come up in a bugs thread every few months or so, and in general discussion it would always be "Go race, humans are worthless)"


Yes, no one ever bitched that archery was overpowered, because that is NOT what this is about.

This is about balancing the shard as a whole. Broadband's words, quote: "Obsidian is, and always will be, balanced to the human race". That means 680 skillcap, no restrictions. If you want more than that, you get restrictions to go with it to balance it out.

As I said before, I picked archery because after discussion with quite a few vets and staff alike, it was decided to be the best option. To date no one has selected another option that is balanced.

Balanced meaning that it's still playable, and that it's not oveprowered so that everyone wants to be one. When you see 90% of the shard human, or 90% of the shard a race, that's imbalanced.

Yes, it's broadband's fault he didn't manage to get races finished till now. Yes, you can bitch at me all day because i'm the one who bothered working with him to get them finished.

But honestly? I don't care.

Now, before everyone quote's that out of context, let's put it into some. I don't care about your bitching. Because 90% of the time, if some people are bitching, it means things are getting more balanced. Because 90% of the time, people don't offer alternatives. Because 90% of the time, it's not an overwhelming majority that does the bitching, it's the people who just got nerfed(made less overpowered).

I care about actual discussion. Of which this thread has very little of. If you, or anyone else, want to be taken seriously, you need to bother reading the ENTIRE post, and understanding it, before you reply to it. I don't care whether it's a staff or another player. But just reading what you want to and ignoring the rest of it is annoying and a waste of everyone's time.

And guess what?

My honest opinion….remove ALL races from the game. Make everyone human with a 700 skill point cap.

You're "honest opinion" is what already exits. Go human, you can gm any skill, you have 680 points plus your vet, which in your case is 700. So effectively you spent that entire post bitching, ignoring what is aid, and you ended with "Make the shard like it is currently, except with less features". or if you want to put it another way, "i don't like the race system now, so take it away from everyone including the people who use it so they can't enjoy it if i don't".

And some people wonder why i get short tempered or don't take their complaints seriously......

As for your last point, that no one does understand, Cite sources. Most people don't post "I agree" when they do. So most of the time you just see bitching on the forums, even when it's a relatively small amount of people. You can't really tell unless you actually look. Quite a few people understand, or this option never would have been put in in the first place. I don't make these decisions on my own. They go through BB, any other admins who are around, a good portion of the vets on the shard who are available for conversation, and some of the staff. And given the fact that if so many players hate it, they should suggest a better alternative, but no one's done that yet? Maybe that's because this is the best option people have come up with, so we're using it till people make a better one that fits the rules?

I will say this again, it's the same thing i say everytime the one or two people bitch about this when they realized they're not overpowered anymore.

First person to come up with a BALANCED ALTERNATIVE that people like more and we'll replace the current system. People had MONTHS to do this in, and no one could come up with one, so we went with the best we had.

I re-iterate the criteria for a balanced alternative:

1. Gives people an incentive to go race, for some people
2. Retains an incentive for people to stay human, for some people.
3. 1 + 2 means that 90% of the shard should NOT be racial, or 90% being human.

truth is if you try any of the new classes you will find some sort of penalty to balance the extra skill points, so its not just melee warrior class that is being penalized.

as much as we'd all like perfect characters, you have to admit that they have done a pretty good job at trying to balance things, and as he said, if you want no restrictions, make a human, and you will find the lack of skill points just as frustrating as the caps on classes. so really there are upsides and downsides to every type of character you can make.



not saying it is perfect, but seems good enough to play and tweak as we go. staff will always consider your suggestions with an open mind, of that im sure.

i see many things i have questions and concerns about also, but am content to try and enjoy the game and if the concerns are still popping up frequently, i try to let staff know when i have all the info they would need to consider my suggestions.

the hard truth is, the old vamp warriors were the single most overpowered chars we have ever had. not saying they are or are not perfectly balanced now, there just hasnt been enough time as i am trying to test play on all sorts of characters. but they were surely gods on the old system.

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LOV FOR LIFE

there was a post where a few people threw out good ideas actually bob.. but u mighta missed it. i forgot what post it was on tho


i know one i posted was, something to do with motion... vamps are undead so they should move a bit slower, kinda like a zombie.........
umm anther one was create racial abilitys that inhibit a vamp more then they empower them. BUT can help in key situations (like bezerk, instead being the way it was and emptying vamps stomachs. it should para. them and make them stay hungry for 10 mins (which should be the rest of the duel..)

so really if u dont use that at the right time. well.... you would be at a serious disadvantage

or making vamps more receptive to poison... meaning like its either harder to cure them(they only can use greater cure pots) or poison does more damage. or they NEVER resist it..

I mean. theres ALOT of elements to PVP and to say no one can come out and up with some good ideas is just stupid

I mean those 2 ideas were just from the top of my head, people are creative and im sure there can be more indepth ways of counter acting vamps being over powered...


but on a side note. i dont mind what bob has in plan and i do get where he's coming from:)and if anything, at the end im sure it will be a fine system(i think anyway, i have been wrong about things b4 and his intentions b4)

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king of the run on sentence.

Chips - Those were nice ideas, and a lot of ideas were in that thread like that, however those don't apply here.

Those are racial specific bonuses/penalties, and will come help balance the race specific abilities. But those are seperate from balancing races vs human.

and no promises, but depending how much time i have this week i MIGHT get the outline for the first race done and if it ends up polished enough i'll post it.

umm then there still ideas, same ideas but they always apply instead of when triggered....

like if u go into war mode as vamp you freeze for 10 secs or something

or you lose HP if u dont drink blood or something.. just a bit of creativity lots of ideas can apply lol we just need to get people to put there heads together.........................

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king of the run on sentence.

Bob...
sigh....nevermind...you missed my points, or would not even take them into consideration...as you have with so many others who have left.

I hope I can look back some day and say "gee, bob was right" because if I can't then obsidian is dead.

I know you want what is best for the shard....but just look at the numbers.....anyone who had ever had a product and changed it only to loose customers has had to change back, change into something new, or parish. You won't change back, you've made that abundantly clear. None of us want obsidian to parish, so the only option is to change into something new. I really hope that whatever you have in mind is revolutionary enough to bring back all the people you alienated with this fiasco.

Good luck, I'm sure your going to need it.

Ok, we talked and I think i found a major point of contention that may be why some people are so confused in this whole issue.

A race warrior is NOT supposed to be better than a human warrior.
They're supposed to be about the same overall. The race character might be better in some situations due to his extra skill points, but the human might be better in others due to his diversified skillpoints, but if we take 20 race warriors and put them against 20 human warriors, we should see around 10 win on each side.

Apparently there was an impression that humans should be "jacks of all trades, masters of none". It is more appropriate to say humans are the masters, and races are specialized so they don't get quite as many options but can master an extra skill.

Who's whole idea was the archery thing?

chips dont forget that there was a difference between a vampire and a vampire warrior. we also had war mages and rogues.


also, no offense, but i dont think i have ever heard of an idea more stupid that making a vampire move slow like a zombie.

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LOV FOR LIFE

The reason for 99% of the disagreements and problems on this shard now are things are being overcomplicated.

You could just balance it all by having all chars with a 680 skillcap + vet points - but them characters could be a race with a special skillstone.

For example:

ALL Characters could GM all skills, no restrictions at all - no matter what race they were (differences being skintones and appearance)

This is where the fun thing comes in - the race stone - all races and characters (even human) should have a race stone, and the abilities this race stone gives will determin what field you would specialise in.

For instance the race stone determines your class, warrior, mage, scavenger, ranger, cocksmoker

The race stone (Class stone) would give you abilities based on your class, not on your race (no more beserk just for vamps etc)

So you could have a Human warrior, a vampire warrior, a frost elf warrior all with the same skills, same abilities, completley balanced vs other warriors

I dont know about others on here I chose a vampire warrior, not because he had beserk or anything (i didnt even know about race stones when i first started) I chose him because he was a vampire and i have a fetish about all things gothy and awesome - I chose him because i wanted to have a vampire running around, not a human

E.g you could have a vampire woodworking alchemist if you wanted, or a wood elf prostitute with lips of steel (ok too far but hopefully you get my point)

I have to say my idea above is fecking brilliant - and cannot be slated at all as there is NO problems with it and would balance the shard 100% straight away in PVP - and im pretty sure 99% of people would take it over the current ideas on balancing (the other 1% disagreeing because they are just plain tools)

Drizzt wrote:chips dont forget that there was a difference between a vampire and a vampire warrior. we also had war mages and rogues.


also, no offense, but i dont think i have ever heard of an idea more stupid that making a vampire move slow like a zombie.

i know it was stupid,, but the point was just get peoples creative ideas LOL
I know the zombie thing would be UTTERLY retarded but the point was Im sure people could pick alternatives to skills being limited on a vampire that would even them out in PVP

and ya i know vamps come in different flavors.... but the zombie idea was wasn't ment for any of them.. even the warriors... if i ment the idea to actually work. bob could probably just limit it to class.. and not race like characters are going to be limited skill wise anyway


ps. call me a plain tool then barney.. that might be ok for now but things will get boring with everyone having the same skill set

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king of the run on sentence.