Hi all, discovered a potential balance problem the other day while PVP'ing as my new found warrior without being able to equp bows!

In the fight it was nigh on impossible to hit / fizzle a mage with macefighting, i tried numerous weapons from hammerpicks to warhammers to war axes, preety much all of them.

This was due to the swing speed of macefighting, before it wasnt really a problem as you could switch to bow if the mage walked away / ran but even in a stonewall I only hit twice in the entire fight.

SO first a couple of questions has the to hit multiplier changed? i seem to hit a lot less now and secondly without archery it has made warriors with macefighting PVM at best.

I know mace does hit harder than other fighting skills but when againsta mage with RA and protection you literally with only mace fighting are not going to kill one

I've also been looking at the skills available and there isnt really anything to replace archery for a warrior? - only one i may use would be stealth, but im not going to

Some input maybe by others who've tried?

They just need to fix the hit to miss ratio, Melee misses about 90-95% of the time.

I say let warriros use bows..

There really isnt no skill to replace archery.

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GMBob wrote: A non-bob gm who shall remain nameless did it!

I have a PVM Mage, and a PVP Mage. My warrior was PVP. But now, It is probably best to delete him...What's the point of keeping him, all he's good for is loosing loot...Without a bow, there is NO possible way to hit a mage unless he's either afk or crashed.

Now that I got that out of the way, I suggest maybe making some paralyze potions, or a special ability for warriors. Or just simply let them use bows again with maybe a max of 85% skill. It kinda ticks me off that I lost GM Archery due to this.

This isnt a whinge that I'm doing I would just like to know what we can use instead of archery, because at the moment you just cant kill a mage, if you have fencing you hit mega fast - which is great but dont cause enough damage to get past protect and reactive armour

Swords again, maybe the best skill to have but still not enough damage unless you pull your prize wep from the bank, and people arent going to go hunting with them

Mace - does enough damage to trouble a mage, but doesnt hit fast enough to get anywhere near causiong the mage problems (i.e they just use bandies, they dont even need to use the heal spells)

There is one bright hope, resist hasnt been taken away from me so i can survive for round 5 minutes atm, although for some reason i cant cure

Venom, was it you i was fighting at the bank? for the testing? if so i cant believe you just think its the hit ratio that needs changing, you moved (if it was you when you saw thew mace swing, everytime causing a miss (because it was so slow)

Idk if it was me you fought i cant remember, but i havnt seen enough mace fighting going on to say anything about that, but i know that with fencing and swords it swings fast enough but you miss 9/10 times so you dont do any damage.
Also my fencing isnt even GM and i know thats a factor, but i cant gain for shit because its so slow, 2 hours hunting = 3 gains

I'll say the same thing i've said on this topic a couple times before. Keep up posting your thoughts on the system. They are NOT finalized, and are being tweaked on a weekly/daily basis sometimes.

We're trying to return things to as close to as it was as we can, but that's a lot harder than you'd think with so many variables, so please keep up the thoughts.

I've lowered the adjusted miss rate a bit more, so try it out.

Also if your problem is the mages are running, might i suggest the old trick of a double or even triple stonewall? cast a stonewall, move 1 step down or up, and use another stonewall potion. This will lower the size of the ring, then you can repeat as neccessary. If you are really good about it, you can even catch them in a corner and render them effectively immobile.
Warriors tended to get lazy when they could use bows, but i've always seen a few who were only melee, and there are several tricks available for them to use.

I take these tricks into account for balance, because if i didn't it would be overbalanced once everyone adapted, but i will try to help everyone get up to speed and used to the older ways of fighting. Mages will try to stay away from warriors, warriors will try to immobilize mages. That's actually why the stonewall potion was invented so long ago, was to give warriors an effective way to combat mages.

I know what you mean Bob, i've been pretty much at the top of the PVP tree before and know all the tips and tr4icks, and used the stonwall trick, you'll be please to know a mage can recall faster than the swing rate to hit with a mace

Hence why i said the swing speed will need looking at if the no bows thing is going to stay

My warrior is GM swords, and I have to agree with Venom on the miss rates. I haven't counted swings, I never counted them before either, but it sure seems like he misses ALOT now.

He doesn't seem to be getting the damage per hit that he did before either. Right before the patch I trained his strength and have been eating strength fish to get strength up to about 103-105ish, (shard is down and I can't check exact str). He seemed to do more damage when he was at 90 str. I will have to try a new sword to eliminate any damage or any old (prepatch) weapon anomalies.

Another issue I experienced while sparring. My warrior with 105 dex was swinging at the same speed as my sparring partner with 92 dex. The kept time swing for swing the whole time we sparred.

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Nash - Warrior (LoV)
Nashmith - Blacksmith (StoneD)
Nashtamer - Tamer (TLC)
Nash Fisher - Fisherman

I havent got a warrior any more so i'm not really affected but i gotta say from what i've seen they have got a bum deal so far from the patches. Sayin u can stonewall or whatever is all well n good but nobody wants to be stuck in a wall fightin the whole bloody time.
Mages wont want to go near warriors cos they will get walled and pwnd and all warriors will want to do is wall so u end up with 2 chars runnin the length of the map and pvp will be gay.
I know u want constructive criticism bob so how about just givin warriors bows back and finding another balance. Mages can still use the line of sight ways of screwin warriors with archery so the balance is almost there already if u know what ur doing(same as using stonewalls for warriors but the other way round if u get my drift). Maybe limit warriors healing(x healing is more sorted now so balance is better than previously), maybe boost mages healing spells, maybe add a miss rate to bows?? Maybe limit warriors resist? Maybe tweak spell dmg? Maybe mess with poison levels? Theres a million ways u could balance without removing a warriors archery so why not give it a shot.
Sorry for the rambling cyber-esque post but i've drunk a load of vodka so if i make no sense just tell me to stfu

Well here is what i'd like to point out.

Warriors have bows.
Go play a human.

Players are chosing to give up their ability to use bows on a warrior character in return for racial abilities(which aren't in yet, but bear with us), and 100 extra skill points.

The game is balanced to humans, NOT to races. Obsidian is NOT a 780 character balanced shard, it's a 680 character balnce, with the option to get an extra 100 if you take a few penalties.

And yeah, mages were never supposed to want to be in stonewalls with warriors. That's why mages get reduced armor to wear, and why they can't bandage heal as well. Mages are long range casters and are cannon fodder for damage.

Anyway once the shard is back up go ahead and mess with the new miss rate, i'll see if it needs some adjusting.

Actually. Scratch that, i'm putting in a new miss formula, just had a good idea. Hopefully you all will like this a bit better.

I see what your saying Bob but pvp was balanced bar a few things (reactive and poison) before you even took bows away I could beat the best mages and they could beat me, pretty even if it was the rare 1v1 which I crave for.

How many "vet points" would i get for being 70 years old? I think i'm just going ot have to go human - Barney the human warrior :cries:

GMBob wrote:Well here is what i'd like to point out.

Warriors have bows.
Go play a human.

Players are chosing to give up their ability to use bows on a warrior character in return for racial abilities(which aren't in yet, but bear with us), and 100 extra skill points.

The game is balanced to humans, NOT to races. Obsidian is NOT a 780 character balanced shard, it's a 680 character balnce, with the option to get an extra 100 if you take a few penalties.

And yeah, mages were never supposed to want to be in stonewalls with warriors. That's why mages get reduced armor to wear, and why they can't bandage heal as well. Mages are long range casters and are cannon fodder for damage.

Anyway once the shard is back up go ahead and mess with the new miss rate, i'll see if it needs some adjusting.

Actually. Scratch that, i'm putting in a new miss formula, just had a good idea. Hopefully you all will like this a bit better.

If you want you can balance race warriors by letting em use bows and not let em gain any wrestling have em locked at 0.0 wrestling lawl i hate getting fff of wrestling. was a joke btw.

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GMBob wrote: A non-bob gm who shall remain nameless did it!

GMBob wrote:
The game is balanced to humans, NOT to races. Obsidian is NOT a 780 character balanced shard, it's a 680 character balnce, with the option to get an extra 100 if you take a few penalties.

Your missing one vital point, there is no point in warriors having 780 skillpoints as take away archery and there isnt any skills you need? Only reason to choose one would be in a PVM scenario

There is NO bonus from having that extra 100 skillpoints, unless you like to hide every now and then.

All thats going to happen now they cant use archery is that there will be a shedload of warriors running around with fencing because the others are too slow.

This in turn leads to warriors who cant actually score any lasting damage against anyone who has reactive armour eabled.

I know your probably thinking im saying this because I have a warrior with useless GM archery but thats not the case, the main chars I use are my PVM tank magey thingy thing and my crafters, Barney comes out Rarely at PVP events.

just a quick question - is ther ANYONE out there that thinks its a good idea to have no archery on warriors? - even Echo doesnt think it is.

Echo wrote:First of all I have to say: I really like the class idea.

List of concerns:
1) Warrior class not able to use archery (I think that as a warrior class they should be able to use all weapons)

Well first off, as we get done with the maintenance and get back to making useless skills worthwhile, you'll notice more skills will become viable for characters to use.

We've already redone stealth/hiding/detect hidden, which will be invaluable to those who choose to use them. More useless skills will become viable options. (35% chance to beg for your life and avoid a killing blow sound good to anyone for GM begging? Just one of many ideas for upgrading other skills).

And as for the bows, I tried for a month to find an alternative to them. No one bothered comming up with one that was as balanced as such, therefore we were stuck with the original idea on that.

Everyone should not want to play race characters, some will prefer humans, some will prefer races. I think with this bow restriction on warriors, we've made that effective, as some players still think the extra skillpoints and abilites are worth it, and others don't.

Anyway when the shard comes back up we can do more pvp balancing this week when i got time, it's kind of a busy week for me. But slowly and surely we're getting back to a working system. Just takes some time working out the kinks.