I saw warlocks can only have 80 magery and 80 resist? ive had my warlock 100 magery for almost 2 years now, and 90 resist.. I just think thats a little retarted =\

and vampires cant be above 0 archery? im gm on my vamp

Warlock restrictions were because warlocks turned into full necromancers.

You probably had a warlock mage.

At this point it seems the original race plans did not include for a race that could excell at normal magery outside of warlocks. This is an unfortunate side affect of the removal of classes.

Which means either a new race will probably be added or more likely an existing race will be tweaked to make it be a viable option for a racial mage.



That being said, For everyone who is like omfg about their vampires, here is my challenge to you.

Log in.
Try your character out as a vampire still.
Give the fact that you can fight without a bow a chance.
And then if you find that it is balanced but still prefer using a bow, go human.

Every balance patch that gets put in(weapons balance, poisoning, healing, magery/armor changes, etc...) , 90% of players will complain about it without trying to adjust their playing to fit the patch. The reason this patch was put in without putting this topic up earlier was to FORCE players to give it a chance and to try it out before automatically getting pissy about it.

As stated earlier, there will be a rollback once races are finalized so no one loses anything in the final picture that wasn't intended, so try it out now.


This topic is going to stay open, and I encourage discussoin and i've liked a lot of the ideas about how we can balance out races so far.

But i also want you guys to give it a chance and get over your first notions and yes, you will have to change how you play a bit. That's what happens when an imbalanced system becomes the status quo for so long, and staff does apologize that the race balance patch is so ungodly late.

I get the feeling that once people have a chance to actuall play their characters and try adjusting to the changes, we'll hear a lot less of "omfg tthis change makes vampires worthless". And if not, we can adjust it and tweak it, and if it's really bad, we can scrap the system completely and go to a different way of balancing.

So give it a chance. And while we're doing that, let's continue the intelligent discusison of possible changes.

While i agree that archery shouldnt be capped on a Vampire, i can work with it. If the archery is set to 0 (thats a pretty big part for most vamps) i say you shouldnt put so many other restrictions, like keep healing and resistance at 100 because in all the time i've played, vampires have been known as superior warriors and i think it should stay like that. But as they are superior as warriors, they cant learn things like magery. If you leave archery at 0, cap less things, or cap archery at like 70ish and lower some others. I STILL THINK A VAMPIRE SHOULD BE BETTER THAN A HUMAN WARRIOR. Because while vampires are superior warriors, humans can master many more things that would balance it out. And really if they are balanced so much you cant pick which is the better warrior, whats the point of races?

Even with the old system, vampires werent THAT overpowered, i've taken some vamps in 2v1 with my human tank.

I think vampires should have knowledge of all weapons (and healing, MAYBE slight magic resistance drop (85-90)) , but little or none of magic and crafting, while warlocks are better mages they have less knowledge of healing (75%) and no crafting/weapons. Ice elves and wood elves should be pretty similar with a few main differences in crafting. Humans should not be able to go toe-to-toe with a vampire as a warrior or against a warlock as a mage if they have the same skills, because they have the versatility that makes them powerful. With no caps they should be able to find a way to stand against the other races.
Keep the racial stones, and if your going to raise humans skill cap, don't make it even with the races, maybe add 50%?

All in all im likeing all of the changes, but i agree with the others, Races should still be superior in their own way, but not superior overall.

_Venom_ wrote:While i agree that archery shouldnt be capped on a Vampire, i can work with it. If the archery is set to 0 (thats a pretty big part for most vamps) i say you shouldnt put so many other restrictions, like keep healing and resistance at 100 because in all the time i've played, vampires have been known as superior warriors and i think it should stay like that. But as they are superior as warriors, they cant learn things like magery. If you leave archery at 0, cap less things, or cap archery at like 70ish and lower some others. I STILL THINK A VAMPIRE SHOULD BE BETTER THAN A HUMAN WARRIOR. Because while vampires are superior warriors, humans can master many more things that would balance it out. And really if they are balanced so much you cant pick which is the better warrior, whats the point of races?

Even with the old system, vampires werent THAT overpowered, i've taken some vamps in 2v1 with my human tank.

I think vampires should have knowledge of all weapons (and healing, MAYBE slight magic resistance drop (85-90)) , but little or none of magic and crafting, while warlocks are better mages they have less knowledge of healing (75%) and no crafting/weapons. Ice elves and wood elves should be pretty similar with a few main differences in crafting. Humans should not be able to go toe-to-toe with a vampire as a warrior or against a warlock as a mage if they have the same skills, because they have the versatility that makes them powerful. With no caps they should be able to find a way to stand against the other races.
Keep the racial stones, and if your going to raise humans skill cap, don't make it even with the races, maybe add 50%?

All in all im likeing all of the changes, but i agree with the others, Races should still be superior in their own way, but not superior overall.

That IMO is what made it balanced. If you wanted to make a warrior you made a vamp if you wanted to make a tank you made it human, Elves both ice and wood were crafting races and well to be honest other than necro i never saw much advantage to a warlock. So what was the problem there? I agree 100% with Venom if you are going to balance them to where you can't tell the difference which is better than why bother having them at all?

well you have already made changes to weapons making BA crap and now you wanna take away archery from a vamp ...i have a shit load of BA i bought hunted and such and now crap but i have a nice collection now...now i guess i have a nice collection of bows that will be shit to me unless i want to sell em. I'm not saying i cant go w melee but that was the nice part when i made my char is that i can either have 2 melee skills or use one melee and archery. And why would i want to be a human...i had that choice when i started.Im sitting here w a copy of the old guide and you have made large changes to this guide ....yes it may have been unfinished but it was not off by that much.By bringing back all the skills and races and spells why would you break down the race guide i would say keep the guide as it was and make some smaller changes ...as some have said healing or resis or 0 magery n such. As for Elves i have a wood elf i made just for the sake of some crafting mining and bs for the most part as was stated before how are any of these crafters overpowered,again i had the choice when i started to be of any race but the guide helped me make that decision as im sure many based it off the guide regiss made.

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IMO I REALLY REALLY liked the old system (3 years ago) where vamps were warriors, warlocks were usually PvM and humans were PvP mages, tanks and really everything in between. There even use to be some human warriors that owned. Im not saying some tweaking wouldnt help but nothing too drastic.
And i guess the player count speaks for itself (100+ players with old system, 15 tops now?)
I really am willing to try out this new system and trying to look at it optimistically and still plan on making a vamp warrior, but part of what made Obsidian such a great shard was the cool races and the awesome PvP.

Im not saying with these changes PvP will suck, and hell i can even see some really neat characters coming out it. But with all these changes its changing the very nature of the races that have been here for several years. YES vampires were stronger warriors than humans but thats the point isnt it?

Back in the days i could fight toe to toe with vampire warriors on my human warrior who doesnt even have parry, so i could say it wasnt that unbalanced, and i never complained being inferior, actualy that even made me a little proud that with inferior char i could still do something
So as i stated in my other post, best thing in my opinion would be give humans another 100 to skill cap and leave races as they were.

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"Blessed be the noobs, for they shall inherit Obsidian" - Seer Thassius

GMBob wrote:Possible option:

Races get most of their skill limits removed. Maybe a few of the more traditional ones remain, only a very few limited or nonexistent skills per race.

Humans gain a bonus related to their age in either stats, skills, or both.
This would make their advantage only evident to players who want to play a long time, and would be surpassed by the other races in early game, but make their late-game potential greater.

At which point we might be able to rebalance some of the other racial abilities, so they grow stronger as the character gets old as well. (Spoiler: The vampire patch for next month already has some of these options being considered, so it would not be out of the question).

Good idea, lets see how everyone likes it, as with the other ideas.

As stated earlier, I have no attatchment to the current system, i'm just trying to be neutral enough to find a way to make it balanced enough that we don't see all vampires, or all humans, and this system was already 90% made so we finished it to see how it would work.

I liked this idea, well, better than how it is atm

so I have a Gm BS/Miner/Tinkerer/ Arms lore Wood elf....have since about February, and i see that I'm only supposed to have 0 in all those skills. Have the skill caps been modified form the originals or were they just not in place after the whole race crash thing and Am I going to have to make a new char to transfer those traits to? If I login will the cap take effect? feel really kinda stupid worrying about this.

Im not asking for wood elfs to have these abilities, just wondering I dont mind being "changed" into an ice elf. though it would through my wardrobe off ><

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Ankhesenamun
Dedo Serenity
Fisherwmn
Ruby Estella
Enchantress

Mhmm two questions:

1)Can we change are current race char into a diff race char?seeing as how MY char who is completly warrior isnt suppsoe to be able to fight at all ahaXD

2)I always kinda wanted to have a Forest Elf or wtv there called as a warrior,I mean ok if they dont have swords or any other weapon except for bows,but shouldnt they be really agile and tactical,meaning they should have 100% in tactics:),mayeb changing up sum racial abilities jsut so we could havea warrior/elf:)

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Heartless(cult)-PVPer
Sushi-Your friendly neibourghhood gm fisherman
Musa-Pvm mage in training

Can I ask why the untrainable skills are like this?
Vamp=12 skills
Warlock=6 skills
Wood Elf=6 skills
Ice Elf=5 skills
Human=1 skill

I feel Vamps are getting hated on.

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i dont think the races that are balanced is stupid,,, lol like the original post said he doesn't want tomake any the best to allow experimentation and style of fightin i say stay wit style anfd it will be kinda boring seeing a brand new person bout to try to pk me and i already know what hes bout to do cuz i know if hes gonna be a warrior tank or a necro / mage and everyone will have the same friggen skilll set which is hella boring,,,, anyway duces!

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king of the run on sentence.

chips LL wrote:i dont think the races that are balanced is stupid,,, lol like the original post said he doesn't want tomake any the best to allow experimentation and style of fightin i say stay wit style anfd it will be kinda boring seeing a brand new person bout to try to pk me and i already know what hes bout to do cuz i know if hes gonna be a warrior tank or a necro / mage and everyone will have the same friggen skilll set which is hella boring,,,, anyway duces!

duces = discuss?

If so, here's the discussion:

No matter what 'system' gets put in place, there will always be a 'best' setup for a PK. So EVEN IF these new restrictions stay in place (I trust from what I'm reading that they won't?) you'll eventually learn what the person is about to do and EVENTUALLY every will have 'the same friggen skill set'

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_Venom_ wrote:IMO I REALLY REALLY liked the old system (3 years ago) where vamps were warriors, warlocks were usually PvM and humans were PvP mages, tanks and really everything in between.

Exactly right.

Because in the old system, everyone could kill everyone. If you chose a human warrior, then you were at a distinct disadvantage - forfeiting parry or poisoning or anatomy (or some combination).

Here's an idea: INSTEAD of changing the whole system to suit those people who chose to make human PvP warriors (why those morons didn't make tank mages is well beyond human comprehension) WHY NOT give people between the ages of x and y the chance to change to a vamp?

Now if vampires are a little overpowered (and admittedly they were just a touch strong if you knew how to drive them), why not scratch bezerk as an option?


I'm with DD on this one.

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oldman wrote: If you chose a human warrior, then you were at a distinct disadvantage - forfeiting parry or poisoning or anatomy (or some combination).

Because the shard is not going to be balanced to race characters. It is balanced to humans. If races get a banefit, they get an equal disadvantage to balance it out, so that they are equal to humans, and neither one has a distinct advantage. This way some players will be vampires, some human, depending on what style of play they want.

This is what broadband said originally, and I asked him again today just to be sure.

The balance of the shard is to humans, not to races. So quit trying to bring humans up to the level the imbalanced races were left at when they were left incomplete, and instead think of balanced ideas that handicap them in response to the advantage they get.


And no, the point of a balanced shard is that you will eventually NOT see everyone have the same skills, because all skills will be viable options, and instead you will see people play how they want to play, not "whatever skill combination works the best".

The weapons balance patch is an example, after balancing out weapons you no longer saw the bow, ba, hamer pick, and warfork/kryss be the only weapons in the game that were used.

It's a slow process, but eventually we will reach a point where everything's balaanced and all skills are equal.