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monsters drop no gold
http://www.dxgaming.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19496		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  chips LL [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:16 pm ]
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i think all monsters should be somewhat profitable yes BUT you need some monsters to be better at certain things, just to balance out the pker side of the shard. cuz if you get the same profit from hunting other things of course pkers stand no chance on finding people cuz theyll be in the middle of a forest hunting deer and orcs lol
Author:  _Venom_ [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:50 pm ]
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Yeah really I agree with chips, why wouldnt some places be better for weps and other places be better for regs cash and such? Everything SHOULDNT be the same. Isnt there suppose to be a whole "roleplaying" theme going on here anyway? Like drakes hoarde gold and gems and giants hoarde weps? Why do you keep insisting everything has to be so uniform???
Author:  GMBob [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:58 pm ]
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Gotta love how people totally miss the point just because they're in a hurry to get upset about things.


The goal is balance across the different types.
For example, the way the new system works is actually a variant on the existing system. We've had a system that adds gold to some monsters based on it's difficulty in a number of factors for quite a while. This was to make it easier to adjust loots across monsters because we don't have to worry about gold.

Likewise, particularly hard versions of monsters would have more gold than the easier variants.

All I have been doing is updating it. I removed the gold from the monsters that still had it, and now every monster is on this system.

Now, this does NOT mean all monster loot will be uniform. It just means that the gold is controlled by a formula for each monster.

Basic formula:

Gold on corpse = Monster difficulty rating(ugly formulas) - (value of items on corpse)

Note: Value of items on corpse is NOT full value for all items. Some items are ignored, others have reduced value rating, reflecting how much gold/utility a player realistically gets from such items. Some items also have increased value, but they are few and far between.


So, if you have a monster that drops a ton of reags, it may not drop any gold, because the reags might be worth more.
Likewise, if you have a monster that happens to drop a lot of gems, you will probably get less gold, but that zombie that drops nothing? He'll have all gold.
This frees us up more to have monster loot be a LOT more variable, without having people be left with almost no loot if it is a very very poor chance, or too much loot on a very high chance. Since gold is calculated when the monster dies, the other loot will already be on the mosnter and it will adjust up to the value the monster should have by adding gold.

I'm not going to go into detail on the magic items loot system yet because i'm still balancing out the basic version of the formula to test.


Anyway, I've adjusted the gold formula some more, so take another whack at it. I'll keep tweaking it as we get more data as everyone hunts.
And yes, the system automatically gathers data while all of you hunt. :)
If we have some tiem at the end of the month and things stay on schedule i'll post some of the more nifty graphs/data to give people a clue where i get my numbers from, and that i'm not just pulling them out of my ass.
Author:  _Venom_ [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:36 pm ]
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GMBob wrote:Gotta love how people totally miss the point just because they're in a hurry to get upset about things.
Gotta love how GMs assume we should know the point of things we are told nothing about.

And yes, now that you acually explain the system better it does make sense, I was just under the impression that all monsters would drop the same loot.
Author:  GMBob [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:12 am ]
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I apologize for being snippity. Just annoying when all i hear all the time is people assuming changes are for the worst instead of trying to think how they could be good first. :)

Anyway more tweaks as usual, actually a ton of bugfixes being put in right now, i just can't resync the server till i get home, so you won't see any effect for a few hours.
Author:  Azimuth [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:39 pm ]
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just FYI

Yesterday outside vesper's east bridge I killed an orc captain and he dropped no gold. earlier I kill a lich lord and he dropped just fine. I don't know if it's specific to that particular orc, or if all orc captains are broke, but it might be worth looking into.

Edit:
I just killed a few skeletons, and the regular skeletons with a shield and cutlass drop no gold.
Author:  _Iori_ [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:28 pm ]
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i thought that the loot stuff was fixed
Author:  Echo [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:16 pm ]
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More than likely it's fixed, Iori. Remember that the gold system now takes into account the value of the other items dropped. So if the heater shield and cutlass are valued at more gold than a skeleton is ranked against, then it drops no gold.
Author:  _Iori_ [ Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:41 am ]
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well in that case the new system suck, cus now u have to worry for weight if u loot the items to sell it and get cash, that makes u waste time in go to the town to sell instand of spend more time killing stuff for cash and maybe get more cash killing then selling items.


maybe its just me but i dont see the point of change the way loot system work compared with the old one
Author:  chips LL [ Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:06 pm ]
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_Iori_ wrote:well in that case the new system suck, cus now u have to worry for weight if u loot the items to sell it and get cash, that makes u waste time in go to the town to sell instand of spend more time killing stuff for cash and maybe get more cash killing then selling items.
um wrong, the point is, that to get what you want, your going to have to go to more than 1 place... like golems and regs.. you want regs when you go there..... your not gonna get the regs and then get tons of gold also.. your just gonna get the regs, thats the point of the system......
_Iori_ wrote: maybe its just me but i dont see the point of change the way loot system work compared with the old one
I agree,
you would need to increase the amount of items/ loot / gold on the creatures, or the people would have to hunt at the best gold place to just keep up with tax, meaning people would be in that area ALOT, meaning that 1 place would be pkers heaven, so it means pkers dont have to move much, but regular players do :(.. meh, that means pking= easier AND more beneficial/ efficent... hunting= harder AND more risk... unless you plan on collecting 200 gp a time per golem that takes u 10 min to kill each.... either way lol
unless you get the new loot table completely right or the formula perfectly tweaked, hunting will kinda suck, and really going and spending time as a real player will be the only way to really get it right.... and that takes away from the rest of the shard... because you'll be spending a good % of ur time playing and not codeing or w,e u do..........


on the other hand, it will give you an insigt on how to tweak different things, and see what really effects the players, not just the louder players which asking on the forums usually leans to... so in a way it will help....
but it would be way more effecting when ur almost done coding and getting everything working properly, then u can test and tweak it all as you play as a player.... instead of just this part,,,


also. spending time as a player and really getting a good dab at it requires a good player base of other REAL players... so when the housing is complete and good and hardy and solid i think we should try getting the base up

for boredum sake, because at this rate.. there won't be any players actually playing on a daily basis when u get done fixing everything...
Author:  GMBob [ Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:37 pm ]
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Actually chips, that's not quite the point of the system.

Let me try to rephrase it a little better.

For example, say you have skeleton horse:

Sometimes they drop a lot of gems, sometimes they barely drop any.

What this new system does is when it dies, it calculates gold to put on the corpse by figuring out the value of the items already on the corpse.

Then it takes the gold value of the monster, subtracts the value of the items, and puts the difference in gold on the corpse.

This means that when you kill, say, 5 skeleton horses, and you loot the gold and gems, you'll get approximately the same amount of value from each horse. Some will just have more gems, while others have more gold.



What this system does, is it allows us to have a bit more randomness in loot, so sometimes a monster may have most of it's loot in items, while other times the monster may just have a lot of gold and maybe a pebble.

Makes sense? If not ask questions and i'll try my best to clarify/answer.

And as always, keep in mind the system is still getting tweaks. the formulas to determine the relative difficulty of monsters is big, ugly, and has a ton of variables, so getting it just right for all monsters is an on-going process.

Also keep in mind that 60k gold in an hour of solo hunting is not the normal anymore, and wasn't supposed to be originally except for some loot glitches that have been there awhile.

Edit:

Another example, you kill a lich.
This particular lich has a difficulty rating of 166, meaning it gets 166 gold value.
When it dies, it has on it's corpse:
Dispel Scroll - value 119
Garlic - value 3
Sulforous Ash - value 3
Emerald - value 40
Tourmaline - value 20
blank scroll - value 21
gnarled staff - value 61

Now if we add all that up, we get a total of 267.
But not all of those items are sellable, or realistically are going to be sold due to weight. So after some formula magic(also ugly), the end value for the items is actually 78. Meaning that lich will get 166-78, or 88 gold put onto it's corpse in addition to the items.

Hope this additional example helps clear some of the magic up.
Author:  Fate [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:08 am ]
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Ya i understand it but..... When most people hunt they hunt for hours at a time. And if we do it this way pvmers will get heavy fast. Then they have to try to find a place to sell them.

Keep it the old way?
Author:  _Iori_ [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:06 am ]
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with the linch example
Now if we add all that up, we get a total of 267.
But not all of those items are sellable, or realistically are going to be sold due to weight. So after some formula magic(also ugly), the end value for the items is actually 78. Meaning that lich will get 166-78, or 88 gold put onto it's corpse in addition to the items.
is why i say the new system suck cus u spend more time and maybe waste more in bandage healing that the drop inself, and killing a linch for 88gold well ..... u know.......... way better the old system and is not for the cash persay is for the probability to get a crappy loot trying to kill a hard mob.


besides can u tell me or explain me why u guys change the system . cus i remember CV working hard in the loot table a while back, i undestand that the shard need some change long time ago in some areas but i think u guys did it wrong cus u start changing all instand of start with the stuff that were broken and move from that to do some other things for good. well thats just my opinion i still feel this new system is more complicated and is not working in a sexy way
Author:  Wizard_of_Gore [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:27 pm ]
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linch = lich

As long as they drop random reagents, and scrolls you can not buy from basic NPC vendors, I'm happy.
Author:  Drizzt [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:01 pm ]
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speaking of gems, prices seem low for them.
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